Discussion:
Who's Left
(too old to reply)
Ronald Praver
2004-10-24 02:42:58 UTC
Permalink
Are there any Oberon people left out there?
haynes
2004-10-24 04:22:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ronald Praver
Are there any Oberon people left out there?
Apparently not many of us. I still think it's
great for my purposes but the lack of developers
building on the original Oberon systems is a
big disadvantage.

-Greg Haynes
Thomas Knecht
2004-10-24 12:40:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by haynes
Post by Ronald Praver
Are there any Oberon people left out there?
Apparently not many of us. I still think it's
great for my purposes but the lack of developers
building on the original Oberon systems is a
big disadvantage.
-Greg Haynes
I'm no developer too, just using it. Day by day, having fun.
Sometimes adding tiny things like recently Cookies to the Web/1.00
Oberon V4.0-2.3 NT 5.0 Browser of Andreas Krumenacker from 1998.

Not sure if you're getting the intensions of Oberon right when calling
for developers.
haynes
2004-10-26 02:40:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Knecht
Post by haynes
Post by Ronald Praver
Are there any Oberon people left out there?
Apparently not many of us. I still think it's
great for my purposes but the lack of developers
building on the original Oberon systems is a
big disadvantage.
-Greg Haynes
I'm no developer too, just using it. Day by day, having fun.
Sometimes adding tiny things like recently Cookies to the Web/1.00
Oberon V4.0-2.3 NT 5.0 Browser of Andreas Krumenacker from 1998.
Not sure if you're getting the intensions of Oberon right when calling
for developers.
Oberon V4 has about 80-90% of the stuff I need,
and its simplicity and ease of extention is really
unmatched by any thing else that I know of.
However, I would like to have a spreadsheet and
some data analysis and graphing capability, integrated
with Texts in V4. This is probably not too difficult
to write but I don't have time to do it. I think
the Oberon developers could come up with some great
versions of these tools, but for valid reasons,
they are working on other things now.
By the way, I would like to know more about anything
you have added to V4.
-Greg
Thomas Knecht
2004-10-24 12:43:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ronald Praver
Are there any Oberon people left out there?
Wirth himself of course. Not here, but there:
http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/wirthPiO/
Chris Burrows
2005-01-03 05:14:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Knecht
Post by Ronald Praver
Are there any Oberon people left out there?
http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/wirthPiO/
If you downloaded the original version of 'Programming in Oberon - A
derivative of Programming in Modula-2 (1982)
by Niklaus Wirth' from this URL, note that an additional Part 4
'Object-oriented Programming' was added very recently..

--
Chris Burrows
CFB Software
http://www.cfbsoftware.com
Lance Schwerdfager
2005-01-06 11:24:20 UTC
Permalink
I have been using Oberon Microsystems' BlackBox 1.4 development
system for personal software development projects at home. I think
that the system is virtually ideal for the type of work that I like to
do.

Why Component Pascal and Oberon-2 don't seem to be taking on
the world by storm is interesting. People seem to be quite happy
being hobbled by the C/C++/Java thing; it's like working with
your hands tied behind your back.

So a successful, world-beating project done in Oberon-2 that shall
shake developer complacency is what's needed. And creating
such a project is up to people like the participants in this
newgroup.. Visibility to the masses shall do it.

Comments?
Chris Burrows
2005-01-06 23:18:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Schwerdfager
Why Component Pascal and Oberon-2 don't seem to be taking on
the world by storm is interesting. People seem to be quite happy
being hobbled by the C/C++/Java thing; it's like working with
your hands tied behind your back.
Shhh, don't tell everybody our secret or we'll lose our significant
competitive advantage :-)

--
Chris Burrows
CFB Software
http://www.cfbsoftware.com/gpcp
Lance Schwerdfager
2005-01-06 11:30:25 UTC
Permalink
I have been using Oberon Microsystems' BlackBox 1.4 development
system for personal software development projects at home. I think
that the system is virtually ideal for the type of work that I like to
do.

Why Component Pascal and Oberon-2 don't seem to be taking on
the world by storm is interesting. People seem to be quite happy
being hobbled by the C/C++/Java thing; it's like working with
your hands tied behind your back.

So a successful, world-beating project done in Oberon-2 that shall
shake developer complacency is what's needed. And creating
such a project is up to people like the participants in this
newgroup.. Visibility to the masses shall do it.

Comments?
Lance Schwerdfager
2005-01-06 11:35:49 UTC
Permalink
I have been using Oberon Microsystems' BlackBox 1.4 development
system for personal software development projects at home. I think
that the system is virtually ideal for the type of work that I like to
do.

Why Component Pascal and Oberon-2 don't seem to be taking on
the world by storm is interesting. People seem to be quite happy
being hobbled by the C/C++/Java thing; it's like working with
your hands tied behind your back.

So a successful, world-beating project done in Oberon-2 that shall
shake developer complacency is what's needed. And creating
such a project is up to people like the participants in this
newgroup.. Visibility to the masses shall do it.

Comments?
Matthias Rustler
2005-01-06 15:07:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Schwerdfager
I have been using Oberon Microsystems' BlackBox 1.4 development
system for personal software development projects at home. I think
that the system is virtually ideal for the type of work that I like
to do.
Why Component Pascal and Oberon-2 don't seem to be taking on
the world by storm is interesting. People seem to be quite happy
being hobbled by the C/C++/Java thing; it's like working with
your hands tied behind your back.
So a successful, world-beating project done in Oberon-2 that shall
shake developer complacency is what's needed. And creating
such a project is up to people like the participants in this
newgroup.. Visibility to the masses shall do it.
Comments?
Some years ago the programming languages Modula-II and Oberon had some
success at Amiga computers. There a currently 2 attempts to relaunch
an Amiga-like OS on plattforms with PPC-processors (*).
Only very few companies a developping for the new Amigas. So if
someone could create a convincing development environment with source
level debugger, class browser and easy access to the operating
system, he could reach some "share of the market".


(*)
a)
http://www.eyetech.co.uk/ (Hardware)
http://os.amiga.com/os4/ (OS)

b)
http://www.pegasosppc.com/

(I'm not involved in any of this companies)


Cheers, Matthias
News.Individual.DE
2005-01-12 19:01:36 UTC
Permalink
Well, here's a somewhat pessimistic = realistic answer: Did you ever see
something really good being successful?!

H. v. Lavergne

www.lahini.de


On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 06:35:49 -0500, Lance Schwerdfager
Post by Lance Schwerdfager
I have been using Oberon Microsystems' BlackBox 1.4 development
system for personal software development projects at home. I think
that the system is virtually ideal for the type of work that I like to
do.
Why Component Pascal and Oberon-2 don't seem to be taking on
the world by storm is interesting. People seem to be quite happy
being hobbled by the C/C++/Java thing; it's like working with
your hands tied behind your back.
So a successful, world-beating project done in Oberon-2 that shall
shake developer complacency is what's needed. And creating
such a project is up to people like the participants in this
newgroup.. Visibility to the masses shall do it.
Comments?
Lance Schwerdfager
2005-01-08 04:03:46 UTC
Permalink
I have been using Oberon Microsystems' BlackBox 1.4 development
system for personal software development projects at home. I think
that the system is virtually ideal for the type of work that I like to
do.

Why Component Pascal and Oberon-2 don't seem to be taking on
the world by storm is interesting. People seem to be quite happy
being hobbled by the C/C++/Java thing; it's like working with
your hands tied behind your back.

So a successful, world-beating project done in Oberon-2 that shall
shake developer complacency is what's needed. And creating
such a project is up to people like the participants in this
newgroup.. Visibility to the masses shall do it.

Comments?
Ulrich
2005-01-10 03:12:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Schwerdfager
I have been using Oberon Microsystems' BlackBox 1.4 development
system for personal software development projects at home. I think
that the system is virtually ideal for the type of work that I like to
do.
Why Component Pascal and Oberon-2 don't seem to be taking on
the world by storm is interesting. People seem to be quite happy
being hobbled by the C/C++/Java thing; it's like working with
your hands tied behind your back.
So a successful, world-beating project done in Oberon-2 that shall
shake developer complacency is what's needed. And creating
such a project is up to people like the participants in this
newgroup.. Visibility to the masses shall do it.
Comments?
Die meisten Leute - nicht nur Programmierer - haben eine
Spieler-Bastler-Natur: Sie genießen den Erfolg, komplizierte Problemchen
gelöst zu haben. Dieses Erfolgserlebnis vermissen sie mit gut
konzipierten Sprachen und Werkzeugen. Egal, welches Gebiet man
betrachtet: Die Masse hat weder Verstand, noch Bildung oder Geschmack.
Warum sollte das für eine Untermenge, diejenige der Programmierer, auf
einem entsprechend höheren Niveau nicht auch gelten?

Wer seit der Publikation von Pascal noch in C programmiert, hat nichts
verstanden. Der Methodik eines reifen Ingenieurswesens ist das sogar
entgegengesetzt. Trotz der immer wieder kolportierten Ansicht, dass sich
C für eine effiziente, prozessor- oder betriebssystemnahe und portable
Programmierung eigne, leistet C nicht einmal das, obwohl es einer
2.Generationssprache viel näher steht als einer 3.Generationssprache -
vor allem in seiner ursprünglichen Definition. Der Grund für die
Unzulänglichkeit liegt in der laxen Definition von Datentypen und der
fehlenden Zuverlässigkeit der Schnittstellenprüfung.

Eine erfolgreiche Anwendung bewirkt nichts - außer vielleicht
ungläubiges Staunen und den Kommentar, dass das wohl sehr spezielle
Programmierer gewesen sein müssen, wenn sie mit so einer ausgefallenen
Sprache etwas zu Stande gebracht hätten. Beispielsweise hat eine für die
quelloffene Programmierung zentrale Anwendung, die in Modula-3
formuliert wurde, keinen für mich sichtbaren Einfluss auf die
Populationsgröße der Modula-3-Programmierer, obwohl der Autor in der
Dokumentation und bei jeder sich bietenden Gelegenheit betont, erklärt
und plausibel macht, dass er mit C oder einer anderen Krücke, keine
Chance gehabt hätte, das Teil allein in der kurzen Zeit mit der hohen
Qualität (Stabilität!) zu produzieren.

Ulrich
Gérard Meunier
2005-01-10 20:33:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ulrich
Die meisten Leute - nicht nur Programmierer - haben eine
[...]
Ulrich
Translation please. Sad to say, but my german is not good enough to
understand you.

Gérard
Chris Burrows
2005-01-11 09:59:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gérard Meunier
Translation please. Sad to say, but my german is not good enough to
understand you.
While awaiting a reply from Ulrich, try translating using Google Language
tools:

http://www.google.com/language_tools

I find it very useful when receiving tech support queries that are not in
English.

--
Chris Burrows
CFB Software
http://www.cfbsoftware.com/gpcp
Lance Schwerdfager
2005-01-16 09:59:34 UTC
Permalink
I have been using Oberon Microsystems' BlackBox 1.4 development
system for personal software development projects at home. I think
that the system is virtually ideal for the type of work that I like to
do.

Why Component Pascal and Oberon-2 don't seem to be taking on
the world by storm is interesting. People seem to be quite happy
being hobbled by the C/C++/Java thing; it's like working with
your hands tied behind your back.

So a successful, world-beating project done in Oberon-2 that shall
shake developer complacency is what's needed. And creating
such a project is up to people like the participants in this
newgroup.. Visibility to the masses shall do it.

Comments?
WLad
2005-01-17 12:53:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Schwerdfager
I have been using Oberon Microsystems' BlackBox 1.4 development
system for personal software development projects at home. I think
that the system is virtually ideal for the type of work that I like to
do.
Why Component Pascal and Oberon-2 don't seem to be taking on
the world by storm is interesting. People seem to be quite happy
being hobbled by the C/C++/Java thing; it's like working with
your hands tied behind your back.
So a successful, world-beating project done in Oberon-2 that shall
shake developer complacency is what's needed. And creating
such a project is up to people like the participants in this
newgroup.. Visibility to the masses shall do it.
Comments?
It concerns what you set yourself as an object.
If I am happy to resolve my problem with simple means why do I need
something more complicated and brain-screwing?
Lance Schwerdfager
2005-01-20 03:27:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by WLad
It concerns what you set yourself as an object.
If I am happy to resolve my problem with simple means why do I need
something more complicated and brain-screwing?
In my opinion, BlackBox 1.4 is overkill for relatively simple
problems, but provides a way forward for significant new
development. Developing reusable software components
would appear to be the next big thing in the software
arena. BlackBox 1.4/Oberon-2 is the most appropriate tool
that I am aware of to get moving in that direction.

Chris Burrows
2004-10-24 09:54:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ronald Praver
Are there any Oberon people left out there?
Have you tried asking your question about Active Oberon on the ETH Oberon
open discussion list?

http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/support.html

I find that most lively Oberon-related discussions occur on the specific
mailing lists related to the particular variant of Oberon e.g. the BlackBox
mailing list http://www.oberon.ch/blackbox.html rather than in this general
forum.

Chris Burrows
CFB Software
http://www.cfbsoftware.com/gpcp
George Wyche
2004-10-25 02:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ronald Praver
Are there any Oberon people left out there?
Are you taking a poll? What for?

My main OS is AmigaOS4 and the Oberon compiler I paid $400
back in 1992? 4? won't work and the no doubt "not generic
enough" programs I wrote crash. Programs don't work and I
cannot recompile.

I'll try to find an Oberon2C front end for gnu c, but lately
I find the complete other extreme, Python, to get me through
the day. It really does seem that the world is a fast moving
target. Indeed, in my Oberon work, I definitely reused code,
but I was usually not smart enough to make the code such
that a wrapper+extensions would to the next trick needed.
Still I would not have to tear down very much before
building a higher tower, hence my GW1 library followed by
the incompatible GW2 and GW3. However.....

Python's well thought out tools enable me to make a working
program is about 1/3 to 1/5 the time it took to make an
OBERON one. Since I do not undertake 2000 line Python
programs, they remain clear in intent and no tricks are
required to express myself. 95% of my programming (at home)
falls into this category.

While I enjoyed my time and did find that the compiler
forced me to rethink "just what the heck are YOU doing?"
when it refused to compile, the older I get the less
patience I have with debugging programs. (They STILL take
about 2.2 times the amount of time I estimate!)

ge||ge
jmdrake
2004-10-26 05:26:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ronald Praver
Are there any Oberon people left out there?
I'm still here. Doing quite a bit of experimentation with the BlueBottle
OS these days. That mailing list is a bit more active then this newsgroup
(albeit it still rather quiet). I'll post some of my more recent work
here soon.

Regards,

John M. Drake
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